» Remember with me! Options

[Donatist]

http://www.youtube.com/v/ervaMPt4Ha0&autoplay=1

[touchwholol]

This post is not very concise/coherent, my post 2 down makes more sense.. I think.

PREFACE - This is me while procrastinating.

tl;dr - Dumb video; ruinous idiotic sentimental manipulation; U.S. citizens are manipulated into idolizing their professional soldiers to conjure support for something otherwise unjustifiable.

What's the point of this? I don't understand the response the author is trying to evoke.

The music indicates I'm supposed to feel sorry (or possibly happy) for someone, but I can't quite figure out who and why:

If I consciously decide to put myself into Schrodinger's box, should you feel sorry for me if I die? Should you feel sorry for the people who were close to me who knew I would willingly do this? Should you feel sorry for my fatherless children?

Should you feel happy I didn't die? Or that everyone is relieved?

The video details/texts indicate gratitude. Gratitude for what? Consider the service our professional soldiers, that we pay for with our tax money, are performing (the video was created in 2006, so list is 2005+):

1. 2005–06 – Pakistan. President Bush deploys troops from US Army Air Cav Brigades to provide Humanitarian relief to far remote villages in the Kashmir mountain ranges of Pakistan stricken by a massive earthquake.
   
2. 2006 – Lebanon. US Marine Detachment, the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit, begins evacuation of US citizens willing to leave the country in the face of a likely ground invasion by Israel and continued fighting between Hezbollah and the Israeli military.[10][11]
   
3. 2007 – Somalia. Battle of Ras Kamboni. On January 8, 2007, while the conflict between the Islamic Courts Union and the Transitional Federal Government continues, an AC-130 gunship conducts an aerial strike on a suspected Al-Qaeda operative, along with other Islamist fighters, on Badmadow Island near Ras Kamboni in southern Somalia.
   
4. 2008 – South Ossetia, Georgia. Helped Georgia humanitarian aid,[12] helped to transport Georgian forces from Iraq during the conflict. In the past, the US has provided training and weapons to Georgia.
5. 2010 - War in Iraq. Operation New Dawn. 50,000 troops remain in Iraq for .
   
6. 2011 - Libya. Operation Odyssey Dawn. Coalition forces enforcing U.N. Security Council Resolution 1973 with bombings of Libyan forces.
   
7. 2011 - War on Terrorism. Osama Bin Laden is killed by U.S. military forces in Pakistan as part of Operation Neptune Spear.
   
8. 2011 - Drone strikes on al-Shabab militants begin in Somalia.[13] This marks the 6th nation in which such strikes have been carried out, including Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Yemen and Libya.
   
9. 2011 US Combat troops sent in as advisers to Nigeria.
   
10. 2011 US Combat troops sent in as advisers to Uganda.
11. 2003–2010 – War in Iraq. Operation Iraqi Freedom. March 20, 2003. The United States leads a coalition that includes Britain, Australia and Spain to invade Iraq with the stated goal being "to disarm Iraq in pursuit of peace, stability, and security both in the Gulf region and in the United States

Response:

1. Did not help us. The people we helped should be grateful; us refers to U.S. citizens, not armed forces. Armed forces should be greatful to us that we pay them to do this. This applies to all missions, btw. Professional soldiers should be grateful we exist so that they may exist. The relationship is not symbiotic, either (this explanation could continue for a long time).
   
2. Only relevant one at all, and still, only the people in Lebanon (wtf are you doing there and wtf are we doing there?) being evacuated OR people who would potentially put themselves in Lebanon (WHY?) should be grateful. This is so ass backwards it hurts my head: we are allies/strong supporters of Israel, right (btw, dumbest thing ever)? Yet, we're *saving* our own citizens from them?
   
3. All that happens here is we bomb suspected Al-Queda. I am very grateful that our armed forces are attacking (a) a POSSIBLE terrorist, ( a group that hates us because of the armed forces presence (and because we're allied with Israel), © Somalians, people who we have absolutely no reason to be dealing with at all.
   
4. See 1.
   
5. See 11.
   
6. I don't see how this has anything to do with me, honestly. I guess fostering trust with U.N. countries is good? The U.N. is rather silly, if you ask me, but that's a rather different topic.
   
7. Complete waste of money, completely irrelevant to me, except that it's a waste of money.
   
8. See 3. Also, no soldiers involved, nothing was risked except money.
   
9. Why?
   
10. Why?
    
11. Yes, very grateful that we had armed forces occupy Iraq for N years. If there's anything I personally could be grateful for it would be causing/abetting a civil war since I am definitely a Shia Muslim living in Iraq. I'm very glad that we disarmed the group that, while apparently having extremely well-hidden weapons of mass destruction butdecided on plane hijackings to initiate their attack, was a serious threat to my well-being. P.S. roughly all of the U.S.'s presence in Iraq was spent on things completely irrelevant to us as a country.

Costa Rica looks good.

[Donatist]

Your problem is with the government not the soldiers. They answered the call of their nation regardless of how you feel about the justification of that call. Give respect to the men and women who defend you from people who are out their to hurt you (and there are people in other countries out there who want to kill you)

Soldiers, policemen, firefighters, national guard all put their lives on the line for others. Only a select few professions are called to do this. You should be grateful that your pussy ass has brave heroes willing to do this cause you probably wouldnt last 5 minutes on a battlefield.

[touchwholol]

Your problem is with the government not the soldiers.

Definitely. That said, more specifically my problem is with

ruinous, idiotic sentimental manipulation;U.S. citizens are manipulated into idolizing their professional soldiers to conjure support for something otherwise unjustifiable.

It isn't really with the soldiers as much as the people telling us and expecting us to love them. I see the gargantuan military presence of the U.S. and think "wow, this is a horrible state to be in", whereas the populace sees them and thinks "wow, we/they are so heroic!"

I take the stance against the idolization of soldiers to combat this mentality.

Give respect to the men and women who defend you from people who are out their to hurt you (and there are people in other countries out there who want to kill you)

When in the last 8 years has any military operation been executed to defend me from people out to hurt me, rather than increase the likelihood of attacks? We are being the aggressor, and no way you cut it are they defending me from 'enemies'.

policemen, firefighters..Only a select few professions are called to do this. You should be grateful that your pussy ass has brave heroes willing to do this cause you probably wouldnt last 5 minutes on a battlefield.

Police and firefighters are domestic services, so obviously they are useful to me. I wouldn't be a firefighter cause I would never pass the physical test, and standards/demand for the positions are ridiculously high.

You should be grateful that your pussy ass has brave heroes willing to do this cause you probably wouldnt last 5 minutes on a battlefield.

EDIT: Just to reiterate from earlier, there isn't anything to be grateful for; and if there is, like an economic advantage, the benefit is morally dubious at best. They do not serve me; really they delve more into the detrimental-to-me category. Do you think we NEED this many armed soldiers? How does every other country do without?

Look at the definition of hero, a soldier does not fall under the first definition. The second definition is where the folly occurs because it's far more relativistic. It's easy to woo the populace into thinking of soldiers as heroes, and to use the idolization as misdirection for whatever purpose.

he·ro
1.a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2.a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.

[touchwholol]

Let me be clear: I would rather all the soldiers not be soldiers and rather be something that's productive for society. It would be infinitely better if they were all producing something of value rather than draining the value produced by the populace.

How can you support something like that?

edit: I am disgusted by this video for the same reason I am disgusted by propaganda promoting Kim Jong-il.

[Zorop]

Hey. No matter what shit, what stupid idiotic mission the government send troops to do, dont ever fkin forget that the soldier going aren't responsible for decision made.
Supporting troops = supporting the fucking troops. Not the government.

Think about that.

[touchwholol]

Hey. No matter what shit, what stupid idiotic mission the government send troops to do, dont ever fkin forget that the soldier going aren't responsible for decision made.
Supporting troops = supporting the fucking troops. Not the government.

Think about that.

But that's simply not true. Supporting the troops = supporting the government.

What is meant by "supporting the troops" and how do I support them?

How do I support them? I mean, what can I do that gives them support? The answer, I believe, is to be on their side in their missions and to hope they succeed in anything they do. So, the support isn't really for the individual, the support is for whatever they have been ordered to do.

How do I give support to the individual? I don't really know, I feel like I might be missing something here.

As a response to guild chat: what I have done in the past 10 years is pay taxes/work on getting an education so that I can pay more taxes, and produce useful software applications.

[touchwholol]

btw, I didn't realize this was in regards to 'remembrance day'. I didn't even know such a day existed.

And just for the record/perspective: if someone was attacking me or the place I live, or the people I care for and work with and who work for me, I would absolutely take up arms and fight them.

I have immense gratitude, love and respect for the soldiers of the Revolutionary War. To a lesser extent, I also support the soldiers on both sides of the U.S. Civil War (though more for the Confederates) and the Allies of World War II.

[Drye]

[Zaphikel]

Shut the fuck up, Diqmoor.

Here's some Kim Jong-Il propaganda, you brazen imbecile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJNBfBr-OGU

[touchwholol]

Shut the fuck up, Diqmoor.

Here's some Kim Jong-Il propaganda, you brazen imbecile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJNBfBr-OGU

Thank you, you have no idea how endearing your statement is to me! (hug)

[Nuadu]

Since I'm not a guild member, I typically don't post on your forums. However, this post touched a nerve.

When in the last 8 years has any military operation been executed to defend me from people out to hurt me, rather than increase the likelihood of attacks?

After the terrorist attacks on 9/11 (remember those?), our military has been scouring the planet hunting down these criminals. They've been too busy hiding and too busy running to organize other attacks.

he·ro
1.a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.

A soldier fits this definition perfectly.

As a response to guild chat: what I have done in the past 10 years is pay taxes/work on getting an education so that I can pay more taxes, and produce useful software applications.

Everyone pays taxes...soldiers included. Not to mention that soldiers get crap pay for what they're expected to do. So why do they do this kind of work? Good question. It takes special men and women to take up arms and shoulder the responsibility to do the horrible things that need to get done to keep this great country safe.

btw, I didn't realize this was in regards to 'remembrance day'. I didn't even know such a day existed.

This is a testament to how truly awesome this country really is. Spend a few years in a couple other countries. You'll learn quickly that you won the lottery of life by being one of the very few who was born American.

Hey. No matter what shit, what stupid idiotic mission the government send troops to do, dont ever fkin forget that the soldier going aren't responsible for decision made.
Supporting troops = supporting the fucking troops. Not the government.

Zorop is absolutely right. Being a soldier means you do what you're ordered to do. Being a soldier and being a politician are very different things. They make the laws and we protect the country and our interests.

And just for the record/perspective: if someone was attacking me or the place I live, or the people I care for and work with and who work for me, I would absolutely take up arms and fight them.

While this sounds noble and dignified, the profession of arms is actually quite complicated. And that's another reason why soldiers exist...so you don't have to think about bearing arms. Don't fret, homie. My brothers and sisters got you covered.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbOcJ6kqJAA

2.a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child

This, I think, is funny. I've been a sniper on the DMZ (demilitarized zone) in Korea. I've been part of a raid to capture and secure weapons that were used as evidence in Slobodan Milosevic's genocide trial. I was recognized by the first Sergeant Major of the Polish Land Forces for helping them develop a noncommissioned officer corps. I've been to 17 countries, lived in three countries for 7 years total and deployed three times. I wasn't a hero. I did my job, brought my troops home and you never once read my name in the newspaper. People thank soldiers because they do what no one else wants to or can't do. And we do it voluntarily so that you don't get drafted. Most countries conscript soldiers to serve at least 9 months. You should really be thankful.

Donatist, Zaph and Zorop, thank you for supporting our men and women in uniform.

Here is a great article if you have time to read it. Perhaps it'll open your mind to the profession of arms in America. http://www.mwkworks.com/onsheepwolvesandsheepdogs.html

Also, let these video clips get your juices flowing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcMk85ZsBh0...feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybju5hb8nkc

And lastly, my avatar is of the 506th Infantry Regiment made famous by Band of Brothers and Saving Private Ryan. I'm a lifelong member of that unit and organization. Of course I had to link something from BoB.

[clearlylol]

As a former soldier, I couldn't care less about the opinions in this thread sup

[Phrequency]

oldguyraider67 reporting for duty

[Donatist]

kid thinks that an opposing force would allow him time to pick up arms and organize a defense. If we had no military force and presence in the world I GUARANTEE you would be serving overlord North Korea right now.

[zaratul]

I gain personal satisfaction knowing that I humbly chose to volunteer my time in our nation's Navy, vice actively "protesting" its very existence, but that is you inalienable right as an American citizen. I would consider myself quite liberal in the political realm and despite having served for 7 years now (and still going), I still think that there are things that our military should and should not be doing. That isn't my decision to make, what was my decision was choosing to sacrifice my time and early adult life. That is something that I am proud of. Not once have I sat around and thought to myself that the average American citizen should thank me or idolize me in any way, shape or form, and I will never expect that. What I do expect is to be treated like every other American vice some barbarian you are out to demonize me as.


In closing, we didn't ask for your fucking opinion on the matter to begin with. The fact that you thought we needed to know how you feel on the subject of a standing military in America is completely conceited and pompous of you. Next time you want to pick a subject like this to 'tackle', I suggest you take a step back and think about the other people who are going to read this and consider someone else's feelings since clearly you don't. No one gives a shit about your opinion here, nor will they ever.

[Nuadu]

I gain personal satisfaction knowing that I humbly chose to volunteer my time in our nation's Navy

Well said, Zara.

I joined the Army because large bodies of water scare the shit out of me. Sad, isn't it...
I failed pre-ranger because I sank to the bottom of the pool. I'm a terrible swimmer.

What do you do in the Navy, good sir?

[Hozz]

What do you do in the Navy, good sir?

This is just asking for it.

[The Palioh]

What do you do in the Navy, good sir?

Chills within a giant collection of seamen. GET IT?! SEAMEN SOUNDS LIKE SEMEN!

[Sark]

Perhaps this is a bit of a tangent, but i feel that there is a world of difference between what the military is used for today and what it was used for in decades past, which is while i feel a few of the above points aren't ENTIRELY valid. That being said, this doesn't reflect poorly upon the people that comprise the military, but rather those in charge of it. The reality is that right now the military is fueled by a virtually endless stream of people who are all but forced into it because they can get no other job in this economy, and the powers that be are more than willing to gamble with the lives of these people. There's a world of difference between World War 2 and whatever you want to call this conflict (because the congress did not declare war) in the middle east.'

Also, food for thought:

If following orders regardless is the honorable thing to do, then was it the honorable thing to do for the police officers on the UC Davis campus to pepper-spray peaceful protestors to the point where they were vomiting blood, and even kick and beat a pregnant woman repeatedly to the point where she had a miscarriage? I mean they were just following orders.

There is no right or wrong answer really, and this is like a debate on religion, no side will ever back down, because they're too adamant in supporting their own beliefs, but it's certainly something to think about.